Esteemed judge ctmf,
This issue effects the current turn, in that it seems many players feel the need to vote "yes" to obtain the special 50 point bonus.
Is gerryblog's proposed rule self-contradictory?
It says:
"All players voting YES on this proposal will also receive an additional one-time bonus award of 50 points."
But then, in the very next line, says:
"After the passage of this rule no points shall be awarded on the basis of how a player has voted for a particular piece of legislation, including the 10-point bonus outlined in 204 for voting NO on passed proposals."
So, judge ctmf, am I right that players will NOT be getting 50 bonus points by voting yes to this proposal?
Aaron, thanks for posting this. Although my language was infelicitous, my intent was that the "after the passage of this rule" would apply only to future legislation, as otherwise the law risks running afoul of 205: An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
In the moment this rule passes, then:
* All players voting YES get their 50 point bonus
* All players voting NO get their 10 point bonus
* Passing rules that include a point-bonus for voting yes becomes illegal.
We see this highlighted by the use of the word "after," with suggests a sense of futurity that can only mean this prohibitition is not simultaneous with the awarding of points for this turn, which takes place with, in the moment of, passage.
This was, certainly, my legislative intent.
I'll hold off on taking my points until ctmf rules on this.
Actually, no, I won't.
Yeah, this is an interesting conundrum. Look at rule 202:
202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.
Also, 205:
205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
I think what this means is a turn happens in this fashion:
-Vote passes
-New rule immediately goes in to effect
-Points are tallied.
Which means no one would get points for voting "no", and I think that's fairly clear. The question would be if the 50 point bonus occurs immediately after the rule goes in to effect, or during the point tally phase of the turn.
Actually, no, I won't.
I see what you did there. If people's votes will potentially change after ctmf's ruling, I think we might be in a mess by you closing things up now, sir.
For 10 more points I will withdraw this invocation.
Well, it's too late, the rule passed when 48 hours were up, as rules always do. I regret the confusion and/or the appearance of some sort of sneakiness but confusion about this aspect of the rule wasn't my intent and wasn't anticipated until you brought it up.
I think I'll hold off on the 10 more points. ctmf's wisdom will resolve this crisis without causing a panic.
I'm with Scalia on this one. The literal interpretation must be informed by the intent of the person writing the rule and how it was interpreted at the time. This seems pretty cut and dry. Unless you're one of those wacky Justice Thomas literal-meaning-uber-alles types. (booooo)
We'll have none of this intent mumbo-jumbo. The rule must be read as written.
Here's something else to consider - "points based on how a player has voted" could also be interpreted to mean points awarded for the passage of a rule. After all, points calculation (as a function of # of favorable votes) is based on how players vote, so it's entirely possible that this rule could mean that rule proposers do not get points at the end of their turns. You still might lose 10 points if the proposal fails.
The results of this judgment could lead to an interesting change of pace for the game...
"...could also be interpreted to mean..."
Could? It's pretty clear to me that that is exactly what this rule means.
ctmf, I ask that this aspect of my question also be included in your ruling.
Is ctmf underwater now? What do we do if he doesn't show up?
Someone will have to invoke judgment that he is no longer the judge.
Judgment
All active players will immediately receive a one-time award of 75 points.
All players voting YES on this proposal will also receive an additional one-time bonus award of 50 points.
After the passage of this rule no points shall be awarded on the basis of how a player has voted for a particular piece of legislation, including the 10-point bonus outlined in 204 for voting NO on passed proposals.
The keys are the words "immediately" and "after." The passage of this rule automatically and simultaneously caused the point bonus awards. At that same moment, any future point bonuses for voting behavior became illegal.
The 50 point bonus belongs with the sentence before it in the "immediate" actions, as indicated by the word "also."
So your judgment is that we all get the 50 points? Will you also make a judgment on whether people will receive points for successfully passing legislation, since Aaron has stated that he wishes that aspect included in the ruling?
Thanks for coming back and saving Christmas, ctmf.
AAA, do you still want that other issue judged upon, or are you persuaded by the distinction ssg drew between "a player" and "the players"?
Whatever. Totally sucks but what can we do, let's move this thing along.
No need for additional clarification, it's obvious this toady is ready to read things however you see fit gerryblog.
Well, feel free to invoke again once it's jay's turn...
Ah yes, I am sure judge gerryblog will have a much more rational and detached perspective on this rule! :)